“So who’s the bad guy?”
“I can’t tell you.”
“Why not?”
“I haven’t written it yet.”
I realised a few days ago that Wizards is missing a villain. I mean, I have a large epic-style villain for the universe type thing — you know, I know what the overall struggle should be. But I need some little villains, petty bad guys that I can beat up. And I realised I don’t really write them. I have no villains. I have heroes who are evil. Or mad. Or related. But petty villainry is clearly something I need to work on.
I think maybe I like the bad guys too much. I can’t help thinking, So, Thug #4, just why are you shooting at Gray right now? What motivates you? How are you feeling? Nervous? Bored? What if you succeed — and he’s lying there in a bloody pool at your feet? How do you feel? Exhilarated? Satisfied? Kinda turned on? Nauseated? Panicked?
And every one of those questions has an answer, a potential backstory unspooling in my brain. (This is also how character lists get out of hand.*) I see that other side of the story too easily. And once you start thinking from the perspective of the bad guy the line between villain and hero gets a bit blurred.
It’s a problem cause once I start thinking about them, they’re a bit irresistable. I love characters who are dark and twisted and damaged. They’re interesting. And so much fun to write. (Yes, apparently I’m a sadist. Don’t judge.)
Still. I need to figure out a way to write two-bit punks without resorting to noir metaphors or delving into their entire life stories. I mean someone’s got to try to kill my heroes. Otherwise what will they do on a Saturday night? They might get into mischief.
* There was going to be a footnote about Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time books here but when I started writing it the footnote got footnotes, and at that point it’s really a post all on its own.
Kandace Mavrick
Paul McLaughlan
jasssa
02/09/2011
Any character who has a major impact on the story should be fleshed out, whether they be hero, villain, minion, or a minion’s doddering grandmother and her 20 year old ginger cat named Lassie. With that said, keep in mind stories don’t need villains – just conflict and development of some kind.
Have you considered writing a story about villains? It’s not a new concept by any means, but it’s always interesting if well done. The challenge would probably be making them likeable/relatable without turning them into roguish antiheroes.
jasssa
02/09/2011
I just realised that comment sounds a little lecture-ish, sorry. You probably already know all of that, and I could be wrong! 🙂
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
While I prefer to know at least some details about every character that walks across my stage, it’s simply not practical to bring the same level of characterisation to all of them. Especially when I’m writing in the first person.
That’s the problem. Big Bads I can do cause I have time to deal out the cards of their characters, petty villains… seem to be harder for me.
And the structure and style of this book requires a range of antagonists of the violent variety. So I’m working on it.
Also, I tend not to really delineate my characters as heroes or villains (protagonist is much more ambiguous), because I like to make them ethically dubious. I’d prefer if my readers didn’t totally agree with all their decisions. I’d like readers to see my characters pushed into situations and go, ‘oh crap, what IS the right choice there?’ (Although gleeful mindless bad guy-ness is totally fun too.)
jasssa
02/09/2011
Oh right, I didn’t mean you should develop them all on the same level or even put all of their backstory/characterisation in the story. I just mean it seems like it’d be good for them to be fleshed out a little in your mind – that way they’d stay consistent and it reduces the chances of you proof-reading and going “Wait, why would he react that way? That completely contradicts what he did/said earlier in the book, aaahhhh now I have to rewrite this scene!”
Yeah, I know there’s no such thing as a black & white hero/villain. All people are flawed and rarely are villains truly monstrous in nature – just greedy/power hungry/angry at someone or something and wanting revenge/etc.
Do you think it’s even possible to write an accessible and engaging story about bad guys who will gladly do Horrible Things (killing innocents/good guys, stealing from the poor, physically and psychologically torturing people)? It seems like the sort of thing which shouldn’t be possible to enjoy unless you’re a sociopath or something, but I’d love to see if it has/could be pulled off somehow.
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
Well, you know, there’s A CLOCKWORK ORANGE… that pretty much fits that description. It’s a hard read in some ways, but interesting.
I actually have a character like that in the third path book (basically evil, but his motivations are fairly clear and one of the main characters REALLY wants to follow him for… various reasons *cough* spoiler, spoiler, spoiler).
jasssa
02/09/2011
Haven’t read that. Perhaps I should track down the audiobook.
I’m trying to avoid learning too much about the stories you’re writing because I’d like to experience them when they’re complete. Or near enough that no major scene-rewrites will take place (so maybe final proofreading if you need volunteers?) It makes it tricky to contribute to conversations about them though! 🙂
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
I’m pretty careful not to put anything up here that will actually spoilerise you. That’s why I’ve been a lot more specific about what I’m doing with WIZARDS than with PATH. Because everything that WIZARDS is right now is the first few chapters and I’m writing the third book of PATH so practically ANYTHING I say is a spoiler.
You will not be surprised by the villain I mentioned above. The very first thing he does is stomp on a kitten (okay, not really, but kind of thematically). And the second you meet him the conflict of the protagonist in question should be obvious.
jasssa
02/09/2011
Oh yeah, that wasn’t me going “aahhh spoilers!”, just getting a little frustrated that I can’t relate directly to the characters in my speculation/suggestions like Caris has about Wizards in the thread below, as I know (and wish to know) little about them at the moment 🙂
Wuffie
02/09/2011
I really love the villain in the Liveship Traders series by Robin Hobb. He sincerely believes that he is the hero of the story, and that he’ll win and live happily ever after. He is so likeable, yet so evil.
I really like Robin Hobb’s writing style, and would recommend the series.
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
Totally on my list. (Which I swear I am getting through! Although not faster than I’m adding things to it…)
jasssa
02/09/2011
I was just talking to Kandace on chat about having read a couple of short stories ages ago where the protaganist (or maybe just the reader) realises at the end of the story that he’s not actually the good guy at all – somehow he’s become (or always has been) the villain. It’s a really intriguing concept. I’ll put the Liveship Traders series on my “to check out” list, thanks! 🙂
Caris
02/09/2011
Can we have an evil tax man who has decided that James really really needs to pay all those back taxes (and property damage fines) or just die so he can shove the problem to another department 🙂
Hugs
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
That’s an awesome idea! Need petty villains? Allow the civil service to provide them for you!
Caris
02/09/2011
It could be a minor (very minor) plot point in each book. The civil services struggle with getting James to comply with the wishes 🙂
(it is how he ends up married because the civil servants hope a spouse will make him more manageable or give them some one else to talk to/harass instead of James)
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
I love how you manage to bring this back round to, ‘They should accidentally get married cause hilarious!’
I think it’d be more likely that they’d get married in order to mess with the civil servants. Making them have to worry about all the joint assets/dependent issues in context of everything else. Jamie seems just maliciously mischievous enough to do that. And Gray has trouble saying no to Jamie…
Caris
02/09/2011
Nah I see it as the James and Gray being married by the civil servants to make things easier for them. Then Jamie and Gray would bring LJ into it just to annoy the bureaucrats because while they know how to do the traditional two person marriage they still despise everyone who marries more than one person because of the nightmare it causes with their paper work and procedures. (I also see them divorcing and remarrying just to screw with the bureaucrats)
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
You are clearly a very evil young lady who has it in for innocent bureaucrats.
jasssa
02/09/2011
Ooh yes. I love the idea of this stuffy little bureaucrat rocking up on some poor wizard’s doorstep, announcing they’re being audited, and demanding an exhaustive and detailed list of every spell they’ve cast in the last 10 years.
It could be interesting to make them more than a minor annoyance though. I wonder if a bureaucrat could work as a major villain? I think the closest I’ve seen to this would be Umbridge, from Harry Potter.
Kandace Mavrick
02/09/2011
Heh. That totally wouldn’t work in this universe. Jamie would probably look at them blankly and then say, “I could could maybe tell you the top five things I’ve done TODAY…”
jasssa
02/09/2011
Ah, but that’s exactly what the bureaucrat would want to hear – that way he gets to begin a harassment campaign where he issues fines and delivers summons for court hearings, making Jamie’s life hell. After all, he has to get job satisfaction from somewhere 🙂
arkayspark
03/09/2011
I think hero/villain is a flawed concept. Everyone is both. Everyone has to balance between their good and evil within themselves. Some people swing one way more than the other, but all can vacillate at different times in varying ways. Some people find the divine within themselves, some are blind to it.
kdoherty89
04/09/2011
Oooooo, I agree. Villains are SO much fun to write. I don’t think it makes you statistic, they just tend to be a bit more fun to write, they represent the darker side of life that everyone can relate to (or at the very least, know about). I hope you create a good one!
Kandace Mavrick
04/09/2011
Mm, now I just have to try to stop my villains from being more interesting than my heroes and my heroes from making too many dark side choices… 🙂
*plot, plot, scheme, scheme*
Wendy
05/09/2011
Tangent: I’ve had to put one character on ice… possibly for good… because he was just too nice! There were not nearly enough interesting flaws. I’ll probably come back to him later with the trauma stick though 😛
Kandace Mavrick
05/09/2011
Ah, the trauma stick. So much fun to be had with that.
I don’t think I’ve ever had a problem with excessive niceness. No one in my worlds is ‘good’ per se, they’re just… the somewhat messed up people we happen to be following around. What do you think it says about me that I have trouble conceptualising characters who are genuinely nice? (I was fascinated by the portrayal of Captain America in the recent film, he was so earnestly genuine it was a bit eerie. Made me think he didn’t have much imagination.)
Wendy
05/09/2011
My problem is that when the book started out this guy was only five, and when I time-skipped later on I think I don’t think I aged him enough! I ended up sending him to a Mad Max-ish prison for three years when he hit fifteen, and he STILL came out of it way too cheerful. The guy’s a freak! FREAK! That said, pretty much everyone else in the story agrees with me…
May have to get the trauma cricket bat.
In my experience the really earnestly genuine characters are the amtagonists! 😀 Whereas the protagonists are all “Should we really be doing this? Maybe we should just go home, guys…” Maybe what makes someone a good guy to me is that they have doubt. So yeah, I would have found that Captain America kinda spooky 😛
Kandace Mavrick
05/09/2011
Oh I agree. It’s the people who are firmly convinced that they know what’s right that are the most deeply scary (Nazi’s, religious fundamentalists…)
But Cap… I don’t know. Didn’t come off with that kind of religious hysteria of belief kind of thing. He was just… disturbingly earnest. It was cute. But still also a little eerie.